What James Talarico told a pro-defund the police group in 2020

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In late summer 2020, as protests over the murder of George Floyd spread across the country, Texas Democratic state Rep. James Talarico told a group of young progressive activists that it was “rich” that “defund the police” was considered taboo when Texas had spent decades defunding public schools and health services.

“As an educator, it’s always rich to me that ‘defund the police’ is considered off-limits in our political debate, when defunding health services, defunding public education has been the stated policy of our state government for decades now,” Talarico told activists with Texas Rising, a progressive advocacy group that at the time was explicitly calling for police departments to be defunded and for greater investment in community-based alternatives.

Talarico, who was responding to a question on how to talk to unfamiliar audiences about the idea of investing in communities instead of policing, acknowledged that the “defund” slogan itself was getting a hostile reaction in his swing district, which he noted had not elected a Democrat since he was a child.

“You know, a hashtag like defund the police is getting people all riled up in my community,” Talarico said. But when people are asked whether armed police officers should respond to minor traffic accidents or mental-health crises, Talarico said, “Most people kind of understand that that’s not what we should be using police officers for.”

The previously unreported remarks offer a window into how Talarico approached the fraught “defund the police” debate at the height of the 2020 protests: avoiding endorsing the politically thorny slogan while also arguing that voters could be persuaded to support some of the changes being advocated by activists if they were described in more concrete terms.

Now running for the US Senate, Talarico’s campaign calls it a “flat-out lie” that he ever supported defunding the police and points to his votes for state appropriations bills that increased funding for law enforcement. And in a statement to CNN, Talarico’s campaign reiterated his opposition to defunding police.

“James did not call for and does not support defunding the police, and he strongly supports Texas law enforcement and first responders,” spokesperson JT Ennis said. “That’s why James has voted to send billions of dollars to local law enforcement, in addition to advocating for better-funded mental health resources so that cops don’t have to respond to mental health emergencies that could be handled by a counselor.”

Dem leader Jeffries reacts to Crockett not endorsing Talarico

Talarico’s campaign told CNN that his Texas Rising comments were meant to criticize Republicans who attack the phrase “defund the police” while supporting cuts to other public priorities. The campaign said his later comments argued against the phrase itself and instead proposed specific policies that it said did not involve defunding the police.

Talarico’s public record and rhetoric on policing is more nuanced than that categorical denial suggests.

From 2019 through at least 2022, Talarico repeatedly backed arguments and policies associated with the broader movement to rethink policing, including limiting police power, investing more heavily in social services and community-based alternatives, and one time explicitly arguing for spending less on policing and prisons. He also proposed sending “highly trained crisis interventionists” to some emergencies.

Many of those comments came at the height of the “defund the police” movement, when the phrase had no single accepted meaning.

While some activists tied it to abolishing or dramatically reducing traditional policing, others used the slogan to describe redirecting police funding toward mental healthcare, housing, education and other social services. The slogan quickly took on a political life of its own, becoming fodder for Republican attacks against a supposed far-left agenda item supported by Democrats.

In 2020, then-Sen. Kamala Harris, before she was tapped as Joe Biden’s vice presidential pick, praised the movement for forcing a debate over whether large police budgets reflected the right priorities. Others in 2020, such as Abdul El-Sayed, now the Democratic nominee for Senate in Michigan, made a similar case for redirecting police spending toward public services and explicitly embraced the “defund the police” slogan.

Talarico often made arguments that overlapped with Harris’ interpretation, even as he stopped short of explicitly embracing the phrase itself.

In his 2020 call with pro-defund activists, Talarico praised protesters in the Black Lives Matter movement for pushing elected officials to rethink the role of government and policing.

“We always expect protesters to be nonviolent,” he said on his Texas Rising call. “What happens if we expect our government to be nonviolent? What does that question open up in terms of possibility?” He said “the voices in the street, particularly Black and brown voices” were pushing those in power to “expand our moral imagination” and live up to the country’s “stated ideals.”

Katina Zentz/San Antonio Express-News/Getty Images

Now, as his Senate campaign seeks to appeal to a broader electorate, Talarico has moderated his image and said many of his 2020 comments “missed the mark.” He has walked back his support for youth transgender rights and other progressive causes as he faces scandal-plagued Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton in a tight race that could help determine which party controls the Senate next year.

Talarico had questioned greater reliance on police even before Floyd’s death.

In 2019, he criticized efforts to increase police presence in schools without comparable investments in mental health professionals, arguing that more officers could contribute to what he called a “culture of violence.”

His rhetoric became more sweeping in the weeks after Floyd’s murder in May 2020.

In a May Facebook exchange , Talarico said he and other lawmakers would “continue to push anti-racist legislation that limits police power,” while promoting healthcare, education and economic justice in communities of color.

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The Texas Senate race is quickly becoming a Republican money pit

In another exchange on the same post, Democratic state Rep. Shawn Thierry called for police to “put down the weapons & kneel alongside Black citizens” and asked when they would be “brought to heel” over what she described as brutality, killings and abuses of police power. Talarico liked the comment and replied, “I couldn’t agree more,” adding that he was committed to work with Thierry “to make the imagery you described a reality.”

That next month, after the release of footage surrounding the death of Javier Ambler II during a 2019 arrest in Williamson County, Texas, Talarico called for replacing the existing policing system.

“Our system of policing is deeply broken,” he said . “We must replace it with something new and something better.”

Talarico’s campaign told CNN, “This quote is taken out of context. It refers to reality TV shows on policing.” Talarico’s campaign also said his Facebook comments were referring to legislation like what later became Javier Ambler’s Law, a bipartisan law sponsored by Talarico that barred Texas law enforcement agencies from contracting with reality television shows.

Brandon Bell/Getty Images/File

Asked directly about defunding the police by the local publication Honest Austin in September 2020, Talarico reiterated the same argument his campaign said had been taken out of context, saying, “Our system of policing is deeply broken. We must replace it with something new and something better,” before questioning whether armed officers were needed for every emergency.

“What if we stopped bringing a gun to every emergency?” Talarico said. “What if we called a three-digit number to summon highly trained crisis interventionists to address a problem in our neighborhood? What if we made rehabilitation, reconciliation, and restoration our operating principles?”

“We need to invest in community-based solutions that cure the societal ills that we ask the police to treat: poverty, homelessness, substance abuse, mental health disorders,” Talarico continued. “We must empower our communities, not police them. Only then will we have true public safety.”

Talarico’s campaign told CNN he was arguing for better funding for mental health resources so police don’t have to respond to mental health emergencies that could be handled by a counselor.

The debate was also playing out in real time in Austin, where city leaders approved a budget in August 2020 that cut roughly $150 million from the police department.

Talarico praised Austin’s local leaders during the same period and criticized Republican Gov. Greg Abbott’s efforts to punish cities that reduced police funding. He also praised efforts to end what he called the “over-policing” of communities of color, saying police violence against people of color has its roots in slavery and Jim Crow.

Talarico’s campaign told CNN he was “discussing the hypocrisy of the state government trying to tell local governments how to run their municipalities when conservatives are supposed to believe in small government.”

Talarico’s campaign also contributed $2,500 in June 2020 to the Austin Justice Coalition , which was advocating cuts to Austin’s police budget and redirecting money toward social services and to “defund” the police department.

The donation became an issue in his reelection campaign after Republicans accused him of helping to defund police. Talarico dismissed the attack as “fearmongering” and defended the contribution, describing the Austin Justice Coalition as “a well-respected civil rights organization in our community that champions educational equity, economic opportunity, and police reform.”

In 2021, Talarico campaigned against Austin’s Proposition A , which would have required the city to maintain at least two police officers for every 1,000 residents and would have forced the hiring of hundreds of additional officers. Talarico urged voters to defeat the measure, arguing instead that “true public safety” required investment in communities. Austin voters ultimately rejected the proposal by wide margin.

And in 2022, Talarico connected reduced spending on policing and prisons with greater spending on social programs.

“If we took just half of what we spent on wars, prisons, and policing, and spent it on education, healthcare, and jobs, we could make prisons obsolete,” Talarico said at a graduation ceremony for incarcerated students. “Research tells us that expanding Medicaid reduces crime, increasing SNAP benefits reduces crime, education reduces crime, clean air and clean water reduces crime. A less violent government leads to a less violent society.”

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2020 年夏末，随着乔治·弗洛伊德被谋杀的抗议活动蔓延至全国，德克萨斯州民主党州众议员詹姆斯·塔拉里科告诉一群年轻的进步活动家，德克萨斯州几十年来一直在削减公立学校和医疗服务的资金，而“取消警察经费”却被视为禁忌，这真是“讽刺”。

“作为一名教育工作者，我总是觉得‘削减警察经费’在我们的政治辩论中被视为禁忌话题，而削减医疗服务和公共教育经费却是我们州政府几十年来一直奉行的既定政策，这真是讽刺。”塔拉里科告诉德克萨斯崛起组织的活动人士，该组织是一个进步倡导团体，当时明确呼吁削减警察部门的经费，并加大对社区替代方案的投资。

塔拉里科在回答如何向不熟悉警务的听众谈论投资社区而不是警务的想法时承认，“取消警务经费”的口号本身在他的摇摆选区引起了敌对反应，他指出，自从他小时候起，这个选区就没有选出过民主党人。

“你知道，像‘取消警察经费’这样的标签在我们社区引起了很大的争议，”塔拉里科说。但当被问及武装警察是否应该处理轻微交通事故或精神健康危机时，塔拉里科表示，“大多数人都明白，我们不应该让警察去做这些事。”

此前未曾报道过的这些言论，让我们得以了解塔拉里科在 2020 年抗议活动高峰期如何处理棘手的“取消警察经费”辩论：他既避免支持这个政治上棘手的口号，又认为如果用更具体的措辞来描述活动人士所倡导的一些变革，选民可能会被说服而支持这些变革。

塔拉里科目前正在竞选美国参议员，他的竞选团队称他曾支持削减警察经费的说法是“彻头彻尾的谎言”，并指出他曾投票支持增加执法部门经费的州拨款法案。塔拉里科的竞选团队在给CNN的一份声明中重申了他反对削减警察经费的立场。

发言人JT Ennis表示：“詹姆斯没有呼吁，也不支持削减警察经费，他坚决支持德克萨斯州的执法部门和急救人员。正因如此，詹姆斯投票支持向地方执法部门拨款数十亿美元，同时他还倡导增加心理健康资源的资金投入，这样警察就不必处理那些本可以由咨询师处理的心理健康紧急情况。”

民主党领袖杰弗里斯对克罗克特未支持塔拉里科一事作出回应

塔拉里科的竞选团队告诉CNN，他在“德州崛起”节目中的言论意在批评那些攻击“取消警察经费”口号，却支持削减其他公共优先事项的共和党人。竞选团队表示，他后来的言论反对“取消警察经费”这一口号本身，而是提出了具体的政策，并称这些政策并不涉及取消警察经费。

塔拉里科在警务方面的公开记录和言论比他断然否认的措辞要复杂得多。

从2019年到至少2022年，塔拉里科多次支持与重新思考警务工作相关的论点和政策，包括限制警察权力、加大对社会服务和社区替代方案的投入，甚至一度明确主张减少警务和监狱开支。他还提议向某些紧急情况派遣“训练有素的危机干预人员”。

这些评论大多出现在“取消警察经费”运动的高峰期，当时这个短语还没有一个公认的含义。

虽然一些活动人士将其与废除或大幅削减传统警务联系起来，但另一些人则用这个口号来描述将警务资金重新分配给心理健康、住房、教育和其他社会服务。这个口号很快便有了独立的政治意义，成为共和党攻击所谓民主党支持的极左议程的把柄。

2020年，时任参议员卡马拉·哈里斯（Kamala Harris）在被乔·拜登提名为副总统候选人之前，曾赞扬“削减警察经费”运动促使人们就庞大的警察预算是否体现了正确的优先事项展开辩论。同年，其他一些人，例如现任密歇根州民主党参议员候选人阿卜杜勒·埃尔-赛义德（Abdul El-Sayed），也提出了类似的观点，主张将警察经费重新分配给公共服务，并明确支持“削减警察经费”的口号。

塔拉里科经常提出与哈里斯的解释重叠的论点，尽管他并没有明确地接受这个短语本身。

在 2020 年与支持取消警察经费的活动人士的通话中，塔拉里科赞扬了“黑人的命也是命”运动中的抗议者，称他们促使民选官员重新思考政府和警察的角色。

“我们总是期望抗议者保持非暴力，”他在“德州崛起”电话会议上说道。“如果我们期望政府也保持非暴力，会发生什么？这个问题会带来哪些可能性？”他表示，“街头的声音，尤其是黑人和棕色人种的声音”，正在敦促当权者“拓展我们的道德想象力”，并践行国家“既定的理想”。

卡蒂娜·岑茨/圣安东尼奥快报/盖蒂图片社

如今，为了争取更广泛的选民支持，塔拉里科的参议院竞选活动调整了形象，并表示他2020年的许多言论“不得体”。他收回了对跨性别青年权利和其他进步事业的支持。与此同时，他正与深陷丑闻的德克萨斯州总检察长肯·帕克斯顿展开激烈角逐，这场选举的结果可能决定明年参议院的控制权归属。

早在弗洛伊德去世之前，塔拉里科就对过度依赖警察提出了质疑。

2019 年，他批评了增加学校警力部署但对心理健康专业人员投入不足的做法，认为更多的警力可能会助长他所谓的“暴力文化”。

在弗洛伊德于 2020 年 5 月被谋杀后的几周里，他的言论变得更加激进。

在五月份的一次 Facebook 交流中，塔拉里科表示，他和一些其他立法者将“继续推动限制警察权力的反种族主义立法”，同时促进有色人种社区的医疗保健、教育和经济正义。

Antranik Tavitian/Getty Images

德克萨斯州参议员竞选正迅速沦为共和党的无底洞。

在同一帖子的另一条评论中，民主党州众议员肖恩·蒂埃里呼吁警察“放下武器，与黑人公民一起跪下”，并质问他们何时才能因其所描述的暴行、杀戮和滥用警权而“受到约束”。塔拉里科点赞了这条评论并回复道：“我完全同意”，并补充说他致力于与蒂埃里合作，“将你描述的画面变为现实”。

次月，在有关哈维尔·安布勒二世 (Javier Ambler II) 在 2019 年德克萨斯州威廉姆森县的一次逮捕行动中死亡的视频公布后，塔拉里科呼吁更换现有的警务系统。

他说：“我们的警务系统已经彻底崩溃。我们必须用新的、更好的系统来取代它。”

塔拉里科的竞选团队告诉CNN：“这句话断章取义。它指的是有关警务的真人秀节目。”塔拉里科的竞选团队还表示，他在Facebook上的评论指的是类似后来成为“哈维尔·安布勒法案”的立法，该法案是由塔拉里科发起的一项两党共同支持的法案，禁止德克萨斯州执法机构与真人秀节目签订合同。

Brandon Bell/Getty Images/文件

2020 年 9 月，当地刊物《诚实奥斯汀》直接询问塔拉里科关于削减警察经费的问题，塔拉里科重申了他竞选团队所说的被断章取义的论点，他说：“我们的警务系统已经彻底崩溃。我们必须用新的、更好的东西来取代它。”随后，他质疑是否每次紧急情况都需要武装警察。

“如果我们不再每次遇到紧急情况都带枪呢？”塔拉里科说，“如果我们拨打一个三位数的电话号码，召集训练有素的危机干预人员来解决我们社区的问题呢？如果我们把修复、和解和重建作为我们的行动原则呢？”

“我们需要投资于以社区为基础的解决方案，来解决我们要求警察处理的那些社会弊病：贫困、无家可归、药物滥用、精神健康障碍，”塔拉里科继续说道。“我们必须赋能社区，而不是对社区进行警务。只有这样，我们才能真正实现公共安全。”

塔拉里科的竞选团队告诉 CNN，他正在争取为心理健康资源提供更多资金，这样警察就不必应对那些可以由咨询师处理的心理健康紧急情况。

这场辩论也在奥斯汀实时上演，该市领导人在 2020 年 8 月批准了一项预算，削减了警察部门约 1.5 亿美元的预算。

塔拉里科在同一时期赞扬了奥斯汀的地方领导人，并批评了共和党州长格雷格·阿博特惩罚削减警务经费的城市的做法。他还赞扬了旨在结束他所谓的针对有色人种社区的“过度警务”的努力，并表示针对有色人种的警察暴力根源于奴隶制和种族隔离制度。

塔拉里科的竞选团队告诉 CNN，他当时正在“讨论州政府试图指导地方政府如何管理市政事务的虚伪之处，而保守派人士却应该信奉小政府”。

2020 年 6 月，塔拉里科的竞选团队还向奥斯汀正义联盟捐款 2500 美元，该联盟主张削减奥斯汀警察预算，并将资金重新用于社会服务，并“取消”警察部门的经费。

在共和党人指责他帮助削减警察经费后，这笔捐款成为他竞选连任的一个焦点。塔拉里科驳斥了这种攻击，称其为“散布恐慌”，并为捐款辩护，称奥斯汀正义联盟是“我们社区中备受尊敬的民权组织，致力于倡导教育公平、经济机会和警务改革”。

2021年，塔拉里科积极反对奥斯汀市的A提案。该提案要求市政府每1000名居民至少配备两名警员，并强制增聘数百名警员。塔拉里科敦促选民否决该提案，他认为“真正的公共安全”需要对社区进行投资。最终，奥斯汀选民以较大差距否决了该提案。

2022 年，塔拉里科将减少警务和监狱方面的支出与增加社会项目支出联系起来。

“如果我们把用于战争、监狱和警务的一半资金投入到教育、医疗和就业方面，监狱就完全可以被废弃了，”塔拉里科在一次服刑学生毕业典礼上说道。“研究表明，扩大医疗补助计划（Medicaid）覆盖范围可以降低犯罪率，增加食品券（SNAP）福利可以降低犯罪率，教育可以降低犯罪率，清洁的空气和水可以降低犯罪率。一个不那么暴力的政府会带来一个不那么暴力的社会。”