Out of Office: Fishing with Gavin Newsom as he contemplates 2028 presidential run

We stood waist-deep in a cold Montana river, cursing at the elusive trout, and talking about whether he was going to run for president.

California Gov. Gavin Newsom had invited me and my crew to his in-laws’ spread on Bitterroot Springs Ranch in Big Sky Country. I had pitched an idea to him, one I’ve been eager to experiment with for some time: a longform interview, not tied to news of the day, talking to people about their childhoods, their parents, some of their tougher moments and biggest successes of their lives.

I didn’t want to do the interview in a chair, or a studio, or with makeup, or ties. I wanted to go where the interviewee felt comfortable. In addition to Newsom, a Democrat, I pitched the idea to a few others including Vice President JD Vance and Secretary of State Marco Rubio. Republican Sen. Thom Tillis of North Carolina has agreed to participate.

STREAMING TUESDAY: CNN’s Jake Tapper goes Out of Office with California Gov. Gavin Newsom to talk about about his family, regrets and a possible 2028 presidential run. Upgrade to watch the full report starting at 8 a.m. ET on CNN All Access.

My horrible fly-fishing form notwithstanding, our fishing trek proved fruitful — if not for fish (though we caught a couple) — for conversation. Spending hours with someone driving around a ranch and standing in the frigid Bitterroot River has a way of loosening up even the most polished politician.

Top of mind for Newsom is whether he runs for president in 2028. One of the key parts of that is who else is running, including his fellow San Francisco Democrat, former Vice President Kamala Harris.

“I don’t know if she runs, but we’ll see,” Newsom told me. “I wouldn’t run if she ran.”

Frankly, I was stunned to hear that.

“Why would I?” he said. “I wouldn’t do that to her. I wouldn’t do it to me. … I won’t waste everyone’s time. Who needs that?”

It didn’t make sense to me.

Evelio Contreras/CNN

“First of all, electorally it’s a gift from God for everybody else,” he explained. “They’d enjoy the hell out of it. Mutual assured destruction. It services no greater good. Why would I do this if I wasn’t trying to serve some greater good? There would be no upside whatsoever.”

But what of the counterargument that she ran in 2019 and didn’t even make it to 2020, then she ran again in 2024 and lost, I asked him.

“That would be the case you’d make,” he acknowledged. “Pretty good one, actually. That’s objectively true. But I know what that means. I know her base of supporters, I know her friends, the (Venn) diagram on that is just pure crossover … I wouldn’t do that to people. I wouldn’t put them in that position … Every other Democrat is praying for that, and every other Republican is gonna pray for that. And that’s just not gonna happen.”

How do you even decide if you’re going to run for president?

“I have no experience in this process, so I’m going through it,” Newsom said. I noted some folks wished he had challenged President Joe Biden in 2024.

“I wasn’t ready,” he said. “First of all, I wouldn’t do that. And second, if I did, I would have gotten crushed because I didn’t have a why. You don’t have big enough why , then you don’t belong there.”

“It’s shocking how many presidential candidates can’t answer their why. Like, shocking,” he continued. He said he’d seen “leading candidates over the last few cycles that are there for the wrong reasons. Or no reason at all, which is the worst. So, you’ve got to have a big enough why .”

After decades in public life — and we talked about it all, his dyslexia, his failed first marriage, his ignominious affair with the wife of a mayoral aide, his mother’s assisted suicide, a close friend telling him he needed to get his shit together, his governor’s race, the challenges of Covid-19, his confrontations with President Donald Trump, and much more — he said, “I am not screwing anything up anymore, man. I know what matters in life. I got four kids, it’s the only thing that matters to me.”

His wife and school-aged children, he said, would have to agree to a White House run. “If they’re not on board, that’s a non-starter.”

In the flowing water, Newsom checked his hook and then cast his line again, looking upstream at the signs of the fish refusing to bite and telling me the signs that might make him run.

“You just have to meet the moment. You got to be honest with yourself. Do you represent the zeitgeist in the moment, or are you wasting everybody’s time?” he said.

“I’m not here to make a point. I want to make the difference, and you can make a difference in a lot of ways in life.”

我们站在齐腰深的蒙大拿州冰冷的河水中，对着难以捉摸的鳟鱼咒骂，并讨论他是否会竞选总统。

加州州长加文·纽森邀请我和我的团队去他岳父岳母位于大天空之州苦根泉牧场的庄园做客。我向他提出了一个想法，一个我一直很想尝试的想法：做一个深度访谈，不涉及当日新闻，与受访者聊聊他们的童年、父母、人生中的艰难时刻以及最大的成就。

我不想在椅子上、演播室里进行采访，也不想化妆打领带。我想去受访者感到自在的地方。除了民主党人纽森之外，我还向其他几位人士提出了这个想法，包括副总统万斯和国务卿卢比奥。北卡罗来纳州共和党参议员汤姆·蒂利斯也同意参与。

周二直播：CNN记者杰克·塔珀将与加州州长加文·纽森进行深入访谈，探讨他的家庭、遗憾以及2028年竞选总统的可能性。升级至CNN All Access即可观看完整报道，美国东部时间上午8点开始。

尽管我的飞钓姿势糟糕透顶，但我们的钓鱼之旅却收获颇丰——即便没钓到鱼（虽然我们也钓到了几条），但聊天却成了乐趣。和某人一起在牧场里开车兜风，站在冰冷的苦根河里，几个小时下来，即使是最老练的政客也会放松下来。

纽森最关心的是他是否会参加 2028 年的总统竞选。其中一个关键因素是还有哪些人参选，包括他的旧金山民主党同僚、前副总统卡马拉·哈里斯。

“我不知道她会不会参选，但我们拭目以待，”纽瑟姆告诉我。“如果她参选，我也不会参选。”

说实话，听到这个消息我非常震惊。

“我为什么要那样做？”他说道，“我不会那样对她。我也不会那样对自己……我不想浪费大家的时间。谁需要那样做呢？”

我完全无法理解。

埃韦利奥·孔特雷拉斯/CNN

“首先，从选举角度来看，这对其他人来说简直是天赐良机，”他解释说。“他们会乐翻天。这是相互确保摧毁。它没有任何实际意义。如果我不是为了什么更大的利益，我为什么要这么做？没有任何好处。”

但有人反驳说，她在 2019 年参选，但甚至没能进入 2020 年，然后在 2024 年再次参选，结果又输了，对此我问他。

“你会这么说，”他承认道。“确实说得有道理。客观上来说，这是事实。但我知道这意味着什么。我了解她的支持者，我了解她的朋友，他们的关系完全重叠……我不会那样对待别人。我不会让他们陷入那种境地……其他民主党人都在祈祷这种情况发生，其他共和党人也会祈祷这种情况发生。但这绝不可能发生。”

你究竟要如何决定是否竞选总统？

“我在这方面没有任何经验，所以我正在摸索，”纽森说道。我注意到有些人希望他能在2024年挑战乔·拜登总统。

“我还没准备好，”他说。“首先，我不会那么做。其次，就算我做了，也会被彻底击垮，因为我没有目标。如果你没有足够强大的目标，你就不适合待在那里。”

“很多总统候选人都说不出自己参选的理由，这真是令人震惊。真的，太令人震惊了，”他继续说道。他表示，在过去的几届选举中，他看到“一些领先的候选人参选的理由根本不对，或者根本没有理由，这才是最糟糕的。所以，你必须要有足够强大的理由。”

在公共生活中摸爬滚打了几十年之后——我们聊遍了他的一切：他的阅读障碍、失败的第一次婚姻、与市长助理妻子的丑闻、母亲的安乐死、一位挚友劝他振作起来、他的州长竞选、新冠疫情带来的挑战、与唐纳德·特朗普总统的对抗等等——他说：“伙计，我再也不会搞砸任何事了。我知道人生中什么才是最重要的。我有四个孩子，这对我来说是唯一重要的事。”

他说，他的妻子和学龄子女必须同意他竞选总统。“如果他们不支持，那就没戏了。”

在流水中，纽瑟姆检查了他的鱼钩，然后再次抛出鱼线，向上游观察鱼儿不咬钩的迹象，并告诉我哪些迹象可能会让鱼儿逃走。

“你必须顺应时代潮流。你必须对自己诚实。你是否代表了当下的时代精神，还是在浪费大家的时间？”他说道。

“我来这里不是为了证明什么。我想做出改变，而你可以在生活中以很多方式做出改变。”